penguinfaery | (no subject)

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http://journal.transformativeworks.org/index.php/twc

*geekgasm*

Academic papers on Supernatural.

Academic fan related stuff is a secret crack addiction of mine. This+Mechadamia=me locked up for weeks.

...except I totally need to be getting food, and cleaning, and working on homework. And not sitting around reading essays on Supernatural Mpreg.

This cracked me up though:

I'm intrigued by the larger questions our show raises if there's a hell, does that mean there's a heaven? I wrote an episode in which people kill after being visited by something that may or may not be an angel. That, of course, raises lots of questions no one can answer. And it was important to hold onto that ambiguity to keep the world of the show from spiraling out into Judeo-Christian-land, and also because in life we don't ever get definitive answers to questions of faith. Keeping all that going for a whole episode was trickier than I anticipated. When we were working on it, we would put on that Voice Over Guy voice and go, "This week on Supernatural: hot zombie chicks. And next week, Sam and Dean ponder the age-old question, 'Is there a God?'" It was heavy.

It would be interesting to see an interview NOW. As they sure went there.

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And it was important to hold onto that ambiguity to keep the world of the show from spiraling out into Judeo-Christian-land

D: I know you don't really agree, but... fuck I wish they'd stuck with that idea. -_- I'm just so tiiiiiiiired of the same, boring Christian mythology in EVERYTHING (especially when this is exactly like Hellblazer, so it's not even a new twist or anything. XD)

Did you know that Castiel was suppose to be Constantine, and they just could get everything ironed out right?

Yeah, I know Castiel is basically a ripoff of Constantine. XD OH KRIPKE. SOMEDAY YOU'LL HAVE AN ORIGINAL THOUGHT. TRY HARD. XP

Well, I don't think he ended up anything much like Constantine at...all. (Maybe a little bit like the movie, but...the movie is sorta...don't get me wrong, I enjoy the movie, but...not anything right)

Well, no, his personality isn't. It's just more evidence that all Kripke does is read comic books and watch other people's TV shows and take stuff and piece it together himself. XP Which, eh, so does Lucas and Star Wars is still awesome. But Supernatural ain't Star Wars. XD

See, part of what I love in Supernatural is the nod to other things. Nothing is new under the sun, and I think all the ideas in Supernatural are used as originally as to be expected, and sometimes more then expected, and putting a character in a trench coat as a nod to a comic book is something I think is pretty awesome.

Well yeah, if it was just a nod. I just feel like Supernatural goes way past a nod to just taking things. I mean, it wasn't based on Christianity at ALL (other than having demons, but to be fair, those were originally all based on stuff from urban legends, which is different) - and then they put in Castiel who's dressed like Constantine, and all of a sudden it's a Judeo-Christian story. x.x WTF happened, Kripke? And his ideas of hell and heaven and all are totally taken from Hellblazer and Hellraiser. XD Like... they even say IN THE SHOW that hell is just like hellraiser but 'with less leather' or whatever. I dunno...

I LOVED seasons 1 & 2... it just... became a completely different show. It's not an urban legend based horror show about two brothers fighting monsters anymore. It's about angels and demons and heaven and hell. :\ I guess I've just done that kind of story so many times... unless he was going to do something really unique with it, it just bums me out. I LOVED how unique SPN was for using uniquely American stories, urban legends! So... yeah. Meh. XP

I see what you're saying, I just think they do it well. Course I came into fandom knowing Angels and shit were on the horizon, so it was never a "turn" to me, but I dunno. Even though the show mythology has changed, the monsters of the week and the...tone haven't.

And I'm impressed by how many monster of the week things they still manage to fit in, and keep things moving, without being like "Let's ignore the apocalypse to go do something random for a week." ~~It could be summed up that way, but it doesn't feels like it~~

Anything involving demons is going to have to include more levels then just a simple boogie man in some shape or form, and I can think of a few other options to explain them as a whole that is so relevant, but like you said, this show is very...American, and Christianity is our biggest mythology. As much as I loved, say, American Gods, I had an issue buying that half those gods and pantheons would have EVER been worshiped here, so using Demons from like...Hindu for their over arching mythology wouldn't have fit. I think once they started making demon's such a big deal instead of making Azazel something "else", the path was pretty well set. And I don't think they could have gone on for TOO long without defining some kind of over arching...antagonistic force.

Yeah, you went into the show knowing what it was gonna become. I'm sure if I had known it was going to do this I... well, honestly I never would have watched it. XD I have issues with Christianity. There's seriously nothing interesting or new or special about any of it to me. I mean, I was raised Catholic. So if I'd known it was going to be a Christian show I never would have bothered. :\ Just 'cause... it doesn't hold my interest, I guess. (Again, I still like it in some things, like Hellblazer is obviously awesome, and I'll watch horror movies - but a TV show is much more of an investment in time than comics and movies.)

I would completely disagree that Christianity is an American mythology. It is a mythology ACCEPTED here and BELIEVED here... but there is nothing American about it. Especially since, as always, SPN is based on Catholicism. Catholicism is European. It's run from ROME. It's not American. It's just something that we have here. I was SO happy to see a show for ONCE that was based on uniquely American mythology - the urban legend - so that's a big part of my bummed-out-ness.

I guess I just think they didn't need to EVER bring up the 'big questions'. Did we NEED to find out more about angels? Really? Did we NEED those things answered? Why do they have to be fighting THE DEVIL and trying to find THE GOD? Why can't they just be fighting A DEMON? Like Yellow Eyes, that was a cool character, that was interesting. Why does EVERYTHING have to be as big of a picture as possible? x.x

But really, my biggest issue with SPN is that I mostly watched it because the first 2 seasons were SO MUCH about the fucked up Winchesters and the issues the boys have and THEIR relationship. The show stopped being about that a long time ago. I mean yeah it's THERE, but that isn't the focus anymore. So... yeah.

I'm just whiny. I can see why some people would like it. They just took a show that shocked and amazed me at how fun and unique it was and how well they incorporated AMERICAN mythology for once, and how they addressed the fucked up family unit... and now it's just another show about these characters who are OH SO SPECIAL and CHOSEN and have to fight THE DEVIL HIMSELF. It's just... a very, very, VERY different show than it started out as.

But to be fair, I do like Castiel and Misha. I just think that character could have been written in WITHOUT making Dean and Sam these SPECIAL CHOSEN PEOPLE. XP

I though you said "Those characters" and I was like "Misha's...what?"

XD

~~Then again I'm not entirely sure he knows that all the time...~~

I do see what you mean, however even though America clearly didn't start Christianity (As much as I'm sure some people believe...) I do think...it and pop-culture are our two biggest mythologies. Not uniquely ours, although we do put some unique...spins on it. We just...don't really have much else going past that besides a handful of Urban legends (Which they had sorta all ready blown through, though I still want a freakin' chupacabra and a legit skinwalker. Though the first gets too much into UFOs I think). And I don't think it's so much Catholic as that Catholics are the closest we have to the most traditional stuff, being the oldest. Catholic...access the most wide variety of the Catholic mythology out there that is still a main stream religion.

See, I...maybe not as big a picture as they went, but if they NEVER explained where demons came from having THAT much demon mythology, I'd be pissed as shit. And I dunno how many more paths they could have gone on while still justifying how bad ass demons are. If they were just like "...oh they are a manifestation of bad feelings." or something...fuck that. I mean...I don't think *I* would mind if they were, say, aliens, but that'd change the feel of it a LOT more....

I can see how it's different, but I think it just...made sense the WAY it became different? Like, each season built logically off the last.

Well, seasons 3 and on made sense together. And 1-2 made sense. But the break between season 2 and 3 was like WHAT THE FUCK DID THEY START DOING, THE BAD DRUGS???? It just came out of nowhere. XD It really feels like seasons 1 and 2 fit together, and then 3 on is very different.

I would have wanted SOME explanation for the demons and such yes, at least SOMETHING... but I wanted it to not go down like this:

Me: So what's up with those demons? I bet you guys have this whole awesome plan full of super interesting unique new concepts. =D
Kripke: ....uh... well..... >_>
Me: Like are they demons in the traditional sense? Were they always demons? Can anyone turn into a demon? Are they from a literal hell or just a hell dimension? I HAVE SPENT TWO YEARS OF MY LIFE OBSESSING OVER THIS TELL ME YOUR GENIUS PLAN SIR.
Kripke: .... >_> Uh. Actually, I just sort of... stole from the bible. OH, and comics... that also stole from the bible.
Me: ........oh.
Kripke: ...yeah.
Me: ...You suck. :<

Is pretty much how it happened, at least in my mind. XD

XD

Season 3 is so my least favorite. Like...IDK if it was the writer's strike, and I don't dislike all of it (Like...both girls were fun, and WAY better then the alternative Ruby wise), but...IDK, it didn't not super appeal to me.

Yeah, season 3 sucked. x.x It was just SUCH A HUGE DISAPPOINTMENT. I'd been watching SPN since practically the beginning and it was my FAVORITE show at the time... so to get to season 3 after two years of being SO PSYCHED OMG and a whole summer of WHAT WILL HAPPEN GAH!!! ....season 3 was... an incredibly huge let-down. And as of season 4 things had already changed too much and it had become such a different show. ~~Plus canon!Dean got replaced by fandom!Dean, which is always sketchy.~~

Yeah, their are a few episode I am like "FUCK YES." but in general I am very "meh." Another benefit of not watching something till it's all done is having no disconnect like that. (I miss out on a bit of fandom, but really, generally I'm digging this whole "Not watching as it comes out" thing. Except for all the Lost spoilers covering every inch of the Earth.)

Like...I actually think Dean was...way too normal. But I also...would not want him as fucked up as he honestly should be. It just...really unbelievable that he's pretty much not just curled up in a ball rocking back and forth.

Yeah, he should either be so traumatized he can't speak - or be totally insane and hardcore and murdering things without any emotion. HE WAS IN HELL FOR CRYIN' OUT LOUD. HELL DOESN'T JUST MAKE YOU EMO!

~~Oh hey look it's me and Ju's rp...~~

Like...I see why they did it, because...as much as it's unreal, having THAT realism would totally destroy any semblance of the show, and they got him back on the show with out making too much belief suspension needed, so I can deal with it. I still think a memory wipe would have been best (He would still feel empty, but not have the mind breaking specifics, and wouldn't THAT be a tool the angels and demon could use)

Also, we totally have more mythology than that. It's just not as well known in the mainstream. Go to the south, there's more American folklore in Georgia alone than they could ever fit into that fucking show. XD Go to the border of Mexico, there are TONS of stories there. Go to the northern east coast, talk about Civil War ghosts and early settler legends! Not to mention the fact that we also have a huge untapped resource of Native American mythology, which they only touched on a couple of times. :< Why not do that stuff instead?

There are things, I agree, but...I don't think you can avoid Christianity as American folklore. And although not tapped to full potential, some of those things have been hit (Hoodoo, Roanoke, Wendigo, Native American curses) and in edition they've hit up real people from our history (The Cross Road Demon, the Devil in the White City dude that tried to kill the shit out of Jo) which I would be more interested to see more of. (like the terrifying woman in New Orleans who was experimenting on people D:)

Oh shit yeah. I mean yeah, Christianity is PART of our identity... it just seems like the show has become JUST about that. :\

But I mean... the last ep I bothered watching was the weird AU future one where Dean sees himself being a badass and stuff and Misha OH SORRY CASTIEL is being a hippy and shit? Yeah. I just.. stopped after that. Figured that episode mostly was good, so I should quit while I was ahead. XD

You missed Crowley!

...which I think would lend more into the rip off thing. but also was so overwhelmingly awesome it didn't matter.

Actually a lot this season have been monster of the week, or close to it (Like there were two at least where what was going on had a mythology explanation, but you went through most the whole episode not knowing) 5 (of 10) have been just...episode, and there was one with famine that was clearly tied into the mythology, but felt a lot like it wasn't. Also was possibly the most disturbing episode of Supernatural I have seen. ~~Two were also really, really dumb. You wanna see OOC? Watch Swap Meat. It seemed like a fanfic. And not a good one.~~

You should try watching The Curious Case of Dean Winchester. I think you'd really enjoy the protagonist in that. I hope he shows back up.

I feel that as many times as I have tried to dissect the philosophies behind a show or movie with someone, they generally are not up for it.

I LOVE that. Fuck. I think it's called Meta, offcially, and I meta the shit outta thing.

Have you ever been on TVtropes?

You should check it out.

Oh shi-! I'm very glad we had this conversation.

Read this: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife

TV Tropes would ruing my life if I didn't already overanalyze everything.

And this: http://xkcd.com/609/

There's a comixed about it as well that's like "I'll just check this one thing at TV trop-"...skeleton.

BWAHAHA! I don't know if I should consider you friends anymore-- feeding me crack and everything.

I am such a pusher, I know.

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